The Culture Coach

#053: Systems Simplified with Erik Darmstetter

• Wendy Brand

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 Erik Darmstetter is a business growth expert who has founded and led several businesses of his own and helped other organizations dramatically increase sales for companies and organizations of every size. Today, Erik is the CEO of Office Furniture Liquidations of San Antonio approaching 10 years in business and recently winning #1 Furniture Store in San Antonio, I believe for the third year in a row. 

What you’ll hear from Erik is a culture that is built around FUN, both for the employees and customer-centric at the same time. And, as the CEO he is living that, because as we all know it starts at the top!

When I consider guests for this podcast now, I’m really looking for leaders that are building business with intention and that might embody some of the THRIVE culture principles. 

  • Tribal Values
  • Helpful Processes and Systems
  • Responsive Listening Strategies
  • Inspiring Inclusivity and Belonging
  • Visible Career and Development Opportunities
  • Empowering Rewards and Recognition


When I was creating my list of ideal guests I immediately thought of Erik. While he could probably speak to each of the principles, we spend our time today discussing "helpful processes and systems". 

Here are some of my takeaways:

1.    A way to create a system can be as simple as paying attention to anything that causes pain, discomfort, or friction. And creating a solution for that friction. 

2.    Turn friction (things you don’t like to do) into fun 

3.    You can use an Autopsy on things that go right AND go wrong. Find the root cause and look for ways to either repeat if it was positive or not repeat if it was negative

4.    Listen to the voice of the customer

5.    Huddles should be 15 minutes or less and cover news, priorities, and hurdles. Use this with your team daily to provide a regular cadence of communication.

6.    Ask yourself why is your business “good”? When things are good in your business find out WHY so you can repeat it.

 You can Find Erik and his company on https://www.officefurnituresa.com/ AND they are a lot of fun to watch on social media. You can find them on facebook and Instagram as officefurnituresa. And, if you’re in San Antonio, come hopscotch in or experience the dance circle.

 And, if

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With 25+ years of leadership experience, spanning multiple roles across corporations and non-profits, I have gained a wealth of experience in understanding what makes organizations successful.

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Speaker 1:

We do an autopsy, which is right on good to great Jim Collins, on what goes right and what goes wrong, and it's an autopsy without blame. We're not looking to blame somebody, we're trying to figure out what if we get a bunch of compliments and appreciation and people, the guys get tips and we're like what exactly did you do? What exactly did you say Okay, and then go deeper into it how did this happen? Okay, and go deeper into it. How did this happen? Okay? So when you arrived, this happened the autosignal and what went wrong is not about blame, but finding out how fast can we build a system so that we never do that again.

Speaker 2:

Welcome to Authentic Energy, a podcast dedicated to getting to the bottom of what it means to be your true, authentic self at work. I am your host, Wendy Brand. Let's take this learning journey together, as I meet with guests weekly. Whether you are a leader or individual contributor, a teacher or a nurse, we'll share conversations and stories that highlight meaningful connections, self-awareness, a sense of belonging and all the components necessary to create a workplace where you can show up in your authentic energy. It's necessary to create a workplace where you can show up in your authentic energy. Welcome back to Authentic Energy. I am your host, wendy Brand.

Speaker 2:

For those of you that have been listening, you know that I am just coming back from a week spent working on my business, but this week I jumped right back in, guiding my clients through their own internal reflection to become the leaders that they envision for themselves and creating cultures where people want to come to work. I love what I do and when I was considering guests for this podcast, I really was looking for leaders that are building businesses with intention and that might embody some of the Thrive Culture principles. So when I was creating my list of ideal guests, I immediately thought of Eric, while he could probably speak to each of the six principles of Thrive Culture. We spend our time today discussing helpful processes and systems. Eric Darmstetter is a business growth expert who has founded and led several businesses of his own and helped other organizations dramatically increase sales for companies and organizations of every size. Today, eric is the CEO of Office Furniture Liquidations of San Antonio, approaching 10 years in business and recently winning number one furniture store in San Antonio, texas, I believe for the third year in a row.

Speaker 2:

So, as you know, employees that are burning out are experiencing feelings of energy depletion, increased mental distance from their job or feelings of negativism or cynicism related to their job and reduced professional efficacy. And what you'll hear from Eric is a culture that is built around fun, both for the employees and for the customers, and, as the CEO, he is living that because, as we all know, it starts at the top. Let's jump into the conversation. All right, welcome back to Authentic Energy. I am so excited for our guest today. We have Eric Darmstetter. Eric, welcome to the show.

Speaker 1:

Thank you, I'm excited to be here.

Speaker 2:

Awesome, Eric. We go way back, so I happen to know personally just what a great leader you are the businesses that you've grown. So tell our audience a little bit about you and where you're at today.

Speaker 1:

So I'm an entrepreneur. One of my key points in life and purposes is to inspire other people, and along my path I've been able to build a lot of different businesses and help build a lot of other people's businesses, as well as modify organizations and help them grow so not just the business part of it, but nonprofits, et cetera. And so my journey is has been in the past about every 10 years I build something new and it's fun, and if I could live another a hundred years, I'd do that, I'd continue to do that. I might actually do multiples, I don't know, but it's one of my favorite things is to help build a company or build one, and so at the present time I am the CEO of Office Furniture Liquidations.

Speaker 1:

I have no plans on having that 10-year thing because that'll be in six months, and so we've been in business nine and a half years. We were just voted the best furniture company in San Antonio Reader's Choice Awards for the Express News five years in a row, and so we're the largest in this part of Texas for what we do new and used, also scratch and dent type furniture that's for offices, and we also dabble in some other home type elements. So I started out in the t-shirt, actually as a photographer, and then moved into other things and it's kind of like the there was a little train that when I had when I was a little boy, that if you got on the edge of the table it would bounce back and move to the other table and kept doing this. I kind of feel like that sometimes. So when I feel resistance I just move in a different direction. Interesting.

Speaker 2:

But it's got to have fun.

Speaker 1:

The thing that the glue that holds it all together, has got to be fun, or else I'm not going to do it.

Speaker 2:

Yes, I, yes, I, I can see that for you Awesome.

Speaker 1:

Well, so a little bit about, and we've known each other for 26 years.

Speaker 2:

And we've known each other for 26 years. That's a long time, eric. Yes, yes, it is. It's a long time, and when I met you, you were running a design company that was very, very successful, and so I know that the organizations that you run and I can't believe you've had the furniture store now for 10 years Like that.

Speaker 1:

Just blows my mind. I can't either Show us how fast we're getting older.

Speaker 2:

I know, I know Scary, so and the listeners know a little bit about why I started the podcast. I had burned out in my corporate career and have come up with a framework that I believe helps organizations build a culture where their employees can thrive and not burn out. You know, and one of the things that I learned along the way is that there's my role as an individual and how I take care of myself to ensure that I don't burn out, and then there's the role of the organization creating an environment that makes it conducive for employees to feel engaged, be excited to come to work, it conducive for employees to feel engaged, be excited to come to work. And the framework it's called Thrive and it really really takes a look at what organizations do that can create an environment where employees can burn out, where there's confusion, there's work overload, there's value mismatch, and so several of the categories that we use when I work with my clients is ensuring they have tribal values, making sure that the values are not just up on the wall right but fully integrated, that there are helpful processes and systems in place so that people know roles and responsibilities and how their work relates to other people's work, know roles and responsibilities and how their work relates to other people's work, really what their place is in the business.

Speaker 2:

There's responsive listening strategies so if you're going to do a culture survey or something, you don't just roll out the survey and then do nothing about it. Employees want to feel like they're heard. There is inspiring, inclusivity and belonging, creating that sense of belonging in the organization. There's visible career and development opportunities, and then there's empowering, rewards and recognition, and I know one of the areas and the reason why I thought it would be just great to have you on this episode is because I have seen you build organizations really focused on the processes and the systems that allow you to scale right, and I think that's a lot of what you've done, even when you were doing consulting as well. So tell me a little bit about how processes and systems show up for you when you're building your businesses.

Speaker 1:

So when I was much younger, so let's say when you and I met, and then after and I would hear people talk about systems in my head it was a software program or something had to be written. It was very complex, it sounded like $50,000, whatever it was, everything was in my head $50,000. And for the next five years they're going to build a system so that maybe I can do this better. But the reality of it is I don't know what happened with aging. So something positive can happen with aging. But you realize, and I guess, working with different companies and seeing them overthink things and that was big. So I mean helping Rackspace chat team compete against Google and Amazon and GoDaddy that was fascinating and we killed it. We were able to modify, but what we did and it goes on to other companies because you worked at Rackspace there's other companies that I've helped and realizing that the simplicity of it is what makes all the difference in the world, because you can write this fancy computer program or whatever else, but if people can't execute it, forget it. And so here's a perfect example, 2012,.

Speaker 1:

My dad was diagnosed with dementia and it was a life game changer in my life. But one of the things that I noticed is right prior to that, and then after that, he was forgetting it. He'd come to my house and he'd leave stuff all over the place. Now my daughter does that. Hopefully she's not watching this, but anyway she is. She leaves stuff all over the place. And so the key thing here's what I learned put all that stuff together, put the keys had spread out. So it was like a hide and seek every time he would come over, but there was a system, and so I knew the system every time I was around him and put his stuff together, or else he would forget it and then he'd need it at a terrible time. And so, keeping things that simple fifth grade reading level or simpler, okay and reminding so, we have 22 people on the team here and we're making deliveries all over Texas. So we have a big giant truck, they drive all over Texas and we have, you know, customers in our showroom constantly. There's probably 20 people in here right now. They forget stuff, they forget their purse, they can't find their. We're calling on the walkie talkies and trying to find somebody's phone, their purse, whatever it may be, all the time.

Speaker 1:

And so some of those little simple things that we can do, literally right now, to make a difference in our lives, to build a tiny system around friction, so we call it friction, we talk about that in our morning huddles, what's causing you friction? And it goes back to thrive and how people can thrive better at work every day, on how people can thrive better at work every day, and so we pay attention to anything that's causing any pain, suffering, discomfort, humidity. Yesterday we walked into the showroom. Humidity was a big friction. It was terrible. In here. Immediately, six air conditioners killed it. Okay, but we couldn't fix the warehouse because there's you know what I mean. There's just like there's gonna be things that you can't fix. But what can you do right now?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I love that. And so what are some examples of the processes that you have or systems that you have in place for your employees?

Speaker 1:

Well, I'll give you a really simple, easy one, and one of them is so when we do, we do an autopsy which is right on good to great Jim Collins. We do an autopsy on what goes right and what goes wrong, and it's an autopsy without blame. We're not looking to blame somebody. We're trying to figure out what if we get a bunch of compliments and appreciation and people, the guys get tips and we're like what exactly did you do? What exactly did you say Okay, and then go deeper into it. How did this happen? Okay, so when you arrived, this happened. Or before you arrived, we knew that there was going to be a stairway. So we lower the chances of surprises, okay, that we're not prepared for. So those little things make a big difference. The autosignal and what went wrong is not about blame, but finding out how fast can we build a system so that we never do that again. And then you know, one of my jobs as kind of the coach, if you will, the lead coach of the team is to make sure that people make the system really simple. I'll give you a quick example. This happened a long time ago Now. It's probably four years ago now, but we had a problem now. It's probably four years ago now, but we had a problem.

Speaker 1:

There's a great uh film clip on uh the movie um, it was about mcdonald's called the founder and uh, michael keaton's in it, and there's a section where they they're on the tennis court and they're trying to figure out how to build mcdonald's the, the kitchen, and they find out if they, if the ketchup is too close to this and the guys are running through the kitchen with a tray, they'll spill hamburgers on the floor or something like that. And so that was happening to us. With the way we had organized our customer service in a rush and we were getting an enormous amount of people, on a Saturday for instance, coming up paying for items. We had to reorganize customer service and I made the people go watch this segment of the movie. I made them, I asked them to please watch this segment of the movie, and they came back and they were just like, oh my gosh, we can do this.

Speaker 1:

And they were excited about it and having fun with it. And so it goes back to that key element of having fun with these things. And so I didn't fix all their problems. Instead, I showed them some ideas on how to fix the problem and then they completely did it themselves. I was a spectator at that point. I mean, oftentimes I know how to solve the problem, but I'm not teaching them anything if I do all the problem solving. It's much like parenting.

Speaker 1:

We can solve all of it.

Speaker 2:

I love that example because you are creating processes and systems both for the customer and for the employee right. You're solving a problem that's going to help the customer, but it's also going to allow the employee to understand the parameters of their job and what needs to get done in order to serve the customer better. And, at the end of the day, how rewarding is that right To know that they have served the customer in the best way.

Speaker 1:

And they love telling the story. They loved talking about how it just took off 30 seconds of this, a minute of this. So it was Kaizen. It was a million different business principles all put into one, but the reality that it was, they had fun executing it and all of a sudden friction could become fun. So there's friction in most jobs and I'm calling friction things you don't like to do, things that are painful to do, problem areas that corporate won't fix or whatever else. And there's a lot of little things that we can do if we keep it simple to fix it immediately. A lot of times, people, it's a bad idea in the first place okay, the way it was set up or the way it was done, and you're really just fixing being an architect after the building's built.

Speaker 2:

So how often do y'all do an autopsy? Is it just right as the problems arise, or there's probably a mini one every day. Okay.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so at least one, and so I'll give you a quick example. We had a customer walk around our first floor, so I'm going to take you on a quick journey.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Okay, and so I'm going to. I'm just going to do this, okay. So you can see where I'm on the second floor. The lighting is good up here so I don't look as old as I may be anyway. So I'm going to, I'm going to show you around. So this is a 45,000 square foot showroom, air conditioned. We were the first in this part of Texas to have an air conditioned showroom. Most people in my business had dirty, dusty warehouses. We never had that, so we've been very blessed with a beautiful place. This was a lax furniture, okay. So here's what happens Downstairs earlier, a customer is walking around and they're looking in this area, right here in kind of this living room area, okay, and there's a lot of beautiful couches.

Speaker 1:

That's leather, you know, there's some beautiful stuff. There's some used sofa beds, there's some used sofa beds. There's a little bit of everything. So here's what happens A customer is looking around. They can't find the chairs they want and they said, oh, we'll just go to blah, blah, blah place and who's got some? I'm not going to mention their names. They got some crap quality chairs like breakable.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Perfect chairs to use as kindling wood for the winter next winter. And so we said have you been upstairs? And so we took them upstairs into our new area and they saw two chairs that they loved and bought them immediately. And and so here's how simple that autopsy can be. I'm trying to make it just ridiculous. We immediately have a meeting afterwards and go those two chairs people love but they don't see unless they come upstairs. Should we have them in both places, upstairs and downstairs? And there's plenty of room here to make another living area.

Speaker 1:

So we're today, immediately we have the third person that's a third person involved on the team who's purchasing them right now, and so we'll have those for sale and they'll have a set upstairs, a set downstairs. And we added to it and said let's go ahead and get coffee table and end tables to match all these, because that's two different people that have come in within a week and said do you have any coffee tables to match this? So you're listening to the voice of the customer huge factor but you can't just listen to the customer. You got to think way ahead of what they'll need in the future, and so those little discussions are active in here. I mean I could be an absent boss or whatever you call it and you know, from an armchair in Colorado or something. But the real thing is you're having real conversations and that whole thing. Five minutes, five minutes, and we've made and I kind of call that a system and that's how we communicate, but it's everything's at high speed.

Speaker 1:

We have tools, not toys. This is a walkie talkie, but it's like a $210 walkie talkie. We have 22, 24 of them here. They go on job sites. Nobody in the industry uses these. As simple as it is. No one in my industry uses these. They rely on phones yeah, but no one's answering their phone on the job site.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and so or their wife's calling and their son's calling and their girlfriend and their wife, or you know what I mean, yeah, and so these the tools, these things are just gold, because it's all about the speed of communication and how fast you can make stuff happen.

Speaker 2:

I love that you mentioned earlier your huddles, and so tell me about the huddles that you run with your team, Okay.

Speaker 1:

So my huddle started in 2002 after I sold my part of CreativeLink at the time and then I built that sales by five and we were at our peak. We had 14 people. We had we were running all the marketing for Wells Fargo advisors in six states and 22 cities, as well as other customers, and it was intense. And so we had a huddle with each one of our customers on a weekly basis, plus us on the morning. In this company it was a must right from the get-go, but we have our huddles at 9.30 every morning. There's people at our distribution center. So four miles from here we have a distribution center that's giant. There's a team over there that's building product on a daily basis and receiving and sending out. They're on the call, okay. And so if you can't be here, that's fine, You're on the call, yeah. And if you can't make the huddle, it's probably because you're on a delivery or something that's happening early in the morning, but it's.

Speaker 1:

We cover news. So news as simple as hey, I'm going to be out. I leave at three, 15 today to pick up my child, which happens a lot here, because I have a four o'clock, we close. We're weird and I I embrace weird.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Okay, um, I really do, and in a fun way, because it's like I've got a lot of younger mothers or families in here and, uh, I started this business with me leaving at three, that my cutoff time was at three o'clock. I closed at three because I picked up my son at elementary school, my daughter at middle school, and so I had to leave at that time. Then I moved it to four o'clock when my kids got older. Well, then now they're in college and it's four o'clock because I've got these other people with so many little kids. So, at any rate, my point is the morning huddle, 9.30, it's 15 minutes or less, Some mornings it's 10 minutes, some mornings it's 13 and a half minutes. Whatever it's news. So what's going on? Priorities so what are the priorities for today? Well, we have an incoming truck. We're going to need to outfit the showroom, we have an order to process whatever those type of things are, and those go. There's about five to six people we call on that set the tone for the day in that meeting and they're running deliveries, they're running new merchandise development or whatever it may be. So they have true news. Okay, not like, hey, I've got my finger hurts, right, yeah, okay, what do we do with that? So the whole point is news, priorities and hurdles. Where are we stuck? And where are we stuck is wherever there's a leader okay, a manager, boss, whatever, coach. You're paying attention to any friction. So, hurdles, where are you stuck? We've used the term friction because that is an emergency for us. We consider ourselves like a formula one team racing team. We're at high speed. Okay, I, if you can be faster than us, I would love how. I want to know how that's. And I really mean that because it's like we're going to make. We're going to make moves in the industry at high speed and we're known for that. We're going to change if we need to at high speed. We pivoted with COVID in 24 hours, changed the entire company. So where I'm going with that is that's in the values that you talked about. Everybody's ready to go and we don't have couch potatoes or sitters. Everybody's like high energy here, which is, if it's a slow day or rainy, like yesterday morning, it's like corralling race horses. Man, it's a little scary. But my point is we're after that friction. Where is the friction coming from? So we can solve it as soon as we possibly can. So, news, priorities and hurdles. I love that and, by the way, this works.

Speaker 1:

If you've got a team that's working on a special project, it's spectacular. So with Wells Fargo, when we'd have? I created an event in Weatherford, oklahoma, for Tom P Stafford he just died a few weeks ago. He's a general. I created an event up there and we had Neil Armstrong there, we had Alan Bean, we had 14 astronauts fly in for it. Well, we were having huddles three times a day to coordinate photography. What was all these different elements to it? So the huddle just doesn't have to be it for one thing in the morning, that's the most important time to have it. But when you have a team out on a job site or doing anything and you have a sub huddle, it's spectacular for solving. Here's the thing Sometimes you don't know you're solving a problem and you're solving a big problem. But the key is you're communicating, just like you would with your wife, your child. You're communicating.

Speaker 2:

I was just about to say I mean, that is communication to a T. You don't have to. You're not having to worry about sending out some big email or you're just cutting to the chase and just ensuring that there's a regular cadence of communication. That's happening so that as and I'm sure if something blows up outside of your regular huddle time, you're still communicating. I mean, you've got the walkie talkies.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely. And then and you may digest later you're like, okay, we need to figure, we need to do an autopsy, and we literally call it here an autopsy, Like how did you know? I don't, I don't know what, I don't have an example off the top of my head, but how did this happen? So you know, we, we like to dig and find out, like a scientist, what exactly happened here. Yeah, so we, we know the, we know how to keep it happening or not. Let it happen again.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, what's the root cause, so that you can address that, yeah, and move forward. So a lot of the listeners are nonprofit CEOs and small business CEOs. So you've talked about huddles, you've talked about autopsies. What's one more thing that you think for that small business, nonprofit CEO that would be critical really, for those helpful processes and systems.

Speaker 1:

So, okay, first thing that comes to my mind, I get excited about this because I've not coaching any companies anymore except my own. So one of my favorite things is as a business coach and I was known for dramatic growth like oh, holy crap, like TMI, tmi, uh, former Texas military. I took them from Texas military Institute to TMI, the Episcopal school of Texas, and it was a wild ride. We, we did insane things with growth and they had people go their separate ways because they couldn't handle the growth. They had naysayers, okay, but when my favorite things to ask a business owners how's business, and they'd go great, and I go why? And they were smart, they'd think for a second they go well, we and they didn't know. They would think. They usually say, well, I think it's because we hired this one guy or we did this thing, and I go are you sure? And the ones that were really honest with me no, I'm not sure.

Speaker 1:

And so the biggest thing was they were used to measuring that when things weren't good, like why aren't they good? But they weren't digging to find out when things are amazing, what happened. Why begin to find out when things are amazing, what happened? Why, if your girlfriend or your wife or your husband and things are just incredible in your relationship. Why, what did we do? Yeah, there's one thing I've noticed that, so we put out this. I can't show you right now because I'm upstairs, but we put out a hopscotch thing at the front porch. Okay, and I thought it'd be for kids, business people in suits, et cetera, and women. And it's scary when the women in high heels come in and do hopscotch because it's it's on concrete and you know, but anyway. So adults do it every day here.

Speaker 2:

I love that.

Speaker 1:

And here's one of the things I learned from just the hopscotch. We also have a dance circle on the front porch and the atmosphere in here. I've always wanted it to be fun because people have the more adult they are, the more mature they think they have to be and they can't have fun anymore, and I don't. I have a rule that if it isn't fun I really don't want to do it, and I know that that may be a little bit childish, but my kids had a phenomenal relationship with me growing up and we had a lot of fun and they were disciplined without knowing they were ever. They laughed at me one day when I told them they were this much. I guess here's where I'm going with this. We can all still have fun.

Speaker 1:

There's a lot going on in the world and when you see a business duo come up here and I'm talking about a man, a female or two females or whatever and they're doing hopscotch out on the front porch and they haven't done it in 50 years or 40 or 30 or whatever, it is Okay. And then they come in here and realize that everybody in here is smiling at them and some of them are like why is everybody smiling at me? Did I put my pants on backwards or something? But you can really. You know there's a lot of negative attitudes. There's a lot of.

Speaker 1:

I used to joke it when I go to eat someplace and there's a hostess or a host that would be just frowning and not happy. I go, are you mad at me? And they go. No, I go. You look like you're mad at me and they. You know what I mean. I just play with them a little bit. But we have fun in here and I just want to encourage people as you're inspiring, as you're doing things, as you're thriving in life. Man, don't forget to have some fun because it humor can take a negative situation and make it much better to deal with or positive every day.

Speaker 2:

That is so great, great advice, and I know that you live that. I've seen you do it in every organization that you've built. So you practice what you preach and that's great.

Speaker 1:

Thank you.

Speaker 2:

You've got a great team there and I know the business is thriving.

Speaker 1:

By the way, it's Office Furniture Liquidations.

Speaker 2:

Yes, office Furniture Liquidations.

Speaker 1:

And we're on Bandera Road and so we have weird hours 10 to 4 Monday through Friday and 11 to 3 on Saturdays. A lot of people think why do you have such weird hours? And I'm like it worked for us really well, so if it works, don't fix it. Yeah, is there a website they can find you OfficefurnitureSAcom, as in San Antonio.

Speaker 2:

Okay, and we'll put all that in the show notes so people can click and find you and come check out some of the furniture.

Speaker 1:

Thank you, and it was wonderful seeing your smiling face. Thanks, eric, bye-bye.

Speaker 2:

That's it. I have six quick takeaways. Number one a way to create a system can be as simple as paying attention to anything that causes pain, discomfort or friction and creating a solution for that friction. Number two turn friction things you don't like to do into fun. Number three you can use an autopsy on things that go right and go wrong. Find the root cause and look for ways to either repeat it if it was positive, or not repeat it if it was negative.

Speaker 2:

Number four listen to the voice of the customer. Number five huddles should be 15 minutes or less and cover news priorities and hurdles. Use this with your team daily to provide a regular cadence of communication. Number six ask yourself why is your business good when things are good in your business? Find out why, so that you can repeat them. That's it. I hope you enjoyed our conversation. Them, that's it. I hope you enjoyed our conversation. You can find Eric and his company at officefurnitureessaycom and they're a lot of fun to watch. On social media, you can find them on Facebook and Instagram also as Office Furniture Essay. And if you're in San Antonio, come hopscotch in or experience the dance circle. And if you liked this episode, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, spotify or wherever you're listening. Also, if you have a friend that's an entrepreneur, ceo of a nonprofit or small business that may benefit from hearing this episode, please share it with them. That's it for today. Thank you so much for listening you.

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Wendy Brand

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